Posted by: Jim | May 21, 2009

“Well, We’re Not Perfect.”

Torture_InquisitionSometimes my avocation of promoting reason over superstition becomes a bleak exercise in futility. When I read news like this, I just shake my head and wonder how anyone could continue to voluntarily submit themselves to the Catholic church. Or any church for that matter. The Catholics’ wickedness was only able to become this systematic because they had such license over such huge segments of society for so long. And it’s no wonder … the atrocities detailed in this report pale in comparison to how they terrorized Europe for almost 1000 years.

The argument of “People aren’t perfect, just forgiven” just doesn’t work. We’re talking about a religion that has systematically tortured people for a millennium. In related news, it turns out that religious people are more likely to be in favor of torture. I wonder why? Perhaps it is because they view God’s love as perfect love. If God is even there, he is silent, detatched, and utterly uncaring about our pain and woes. This “example” of love seems to trickle down to his followers, for whom torture is a natural expression of compassion.

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Responses

  1. Torture? Wow. Torture was done by atheists, dictators, regular people, in the name of war, patriotism, religion, and hatred. Torture is something that is an equal opportunity sin, as are all sins! I’m not condoning torture, but rather saying that it has been done by pagans throughout every era.

    The Catholic Church was not being Christian! Just because you call yourself something by name does not make it so. It was in fact being evil and poured forth some of humanities ugliest and most despicable actions to have ever been performed on the planet. They were promoting Rome and using the disguise and power of the church as a benevolent reason.

    They tortured people horribly, sexually molested people, raped them, burned them at the stake and relished in the actions and even saw it as entertainment! These men were evil, pure and simple. Evil to the maximum because they hid behind the precious cross and dragged the Savior’s name into the depths of evil itself.

    Jesus spoke of men that would kill in the name of God… John 16:2-3

    … a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.”

    In Revelation 13:11 God speaks of a beast that has two horns like a lamb, but speaks like a dragon.

    What does Jesus say when people did not welcome him and when his own disciples want to kill ? Luke 9:53-56
    (New Living Translation)

    53 But the people of the village did not welcome Jesus because he was on his way to Jerusalem. 54 When James and John saw this, they said to Jesus, “Lord, should we call down fire from heaven to burn them up?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them.56 So they went on to another village And he said, “You don’t realize what your hearts are like. For the Son of Man has not come to destroy people’s lives, but to save them.”

    Jesus’ spirit is nice… Matthew 11:29-30 (New Living Translation)

    29 Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light.”

    Romans 13:9 (New International Version)

    9The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    and… Matthew 23:37 (New International Version)

    37″O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

    When Peter wanted to kill the men who were capturing Jesus and when he cut off the man’s ear… Luke 22:49-52 (New International Version)

    49When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

    51But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

    52Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, “Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs?”

    Just because the messenger in this case the Catholic, Roman “church” during the inquisition period, is hypocritical and gets the message completely wrong, does not mean that the actual message is bad or wrong. Obviously they are representing that with which they sincerely know not!

    Then, when you lump in your statement “or any church for that matter” you are really misrepresenting Christianity.

    That’s like me saying look at what the Nazi’s did during and before WWII! Secular Governments or any Governments for that matter…

    You can replace “Catholics” with Nazi… “The Nazi’s wickedness was only able to become this systematic because they had such license over such huge segments of society for so long…”

    You might be able to replace that with any number of words, Republicans, Democrats, The United Nations…. Yes, we need to keep everyone in check, even if their *doctrine* is essentially peaceful (like Republican and Democrat).

    What is the saying about power? “Power corrupts?” We need watchdogs for all groups in power, not just religious groups.

    We humans are easily corrupted. It is by God’s command that we die to self and become selfless and love others as ourselves.

  2. Ted is totally shameless. The story above is one not for you to comment on, but for you to go away for a thousand years you slimeball.

    “I’m not condoning torture, but rather saying that it has been done by pagans throughout every era.”

    So, Christians are no better than pagans. So stop pushing your filthy scripture. YOU should be put into the care of people such as this.

  3. It is just truly sickening that the best Ted can write is that “Those people over there do it, too”

    For all the so-called wish to engage in discourse, that is what it comes down to – the logic of a child caught stealing cookies – “But X stole some, too…”

    Only a mental spastic would take such an excuse into adulthood.

    When will religious SOBs like Ted take any responsibility and realise it’s not about what X did, it’s about what the Catholic church did.

  4. And bastards like Ted go on about the secular society encouraging ‘moral relativism’

    And here he is – “They do it, too”

  5. kingfelix,

    You stopped reading after you read what you wanted to comment on. That’s just like you to do that. Classic kingfelix. The point was not that other people do it too. I said it was one of the worst things to happen on this planet. But you want to spew your rhetoric and have fun with that rubber tongue of yours trying to make yourself feel better by putting others down.

    The other thing is that God’s standards are how we KNOW that the atrocities of the Catholic church during the inquisitions were wrong and evil in the first place. Without a universal right and wrong, you are just witnessing survival of the fittest.

    kingfelix, I’m sorry but you’re not fooling anyone by trying to paint Ted and other Christians with your own brush.

    The people during the inquisition were not acting in a Christian way or by any Christian teaching. They were evil and wrong and we know this because God has taught us the difference from right and wrong. They were even more wrong because they did it in the name of God, when they had no business doing so since it was so against what Jesus wants for us.

    It can’t be any clearer. All you pick up on is they do it too?? That’s just stupid and you know it.

  6. “The Spanish Inquisition and its counterparts encompass one of the bloodiest periods in the history of the church. During the Inquisition(s) millions of people were slaughtered for the crime of “heresy” by Roman Catholic persecutors. In fact, Pope Innocent III murdered far more Christians in one afternoon than any Roman emperor did in during his entire reign. ”

    They were a bunch of murderers. They were not acting like Christ, which is what a Christian is. A lot of people say that they are Christ followers instead of saying they are Catholic or Christian for the very reason of escaping the possible bad connotation with the terms due to so many people claiming to be Christian but NOT acting like Christ.

  7. kingfelix, you also must know that one of the premises of this post was to try to point to religion as the cause of such pain and evil in the world. Yes, it was done in the name of religion (although false religion in my opinion as I’ve stated that they were not being Christlike) and that is wrong and horrible.

    The point of saying that others that were not religious have done the same things was to point out that it is not just religion that has been evil, but all of mankind regardless of religion.

  8. “I’m not condoning torture, but rather saying that it has been done by pagans throughout every era.”

    I read all of your rubbish, actually, most of it was from a 2000 year old work of fiction.

    If this is not establishing an equivalence, what is?

    ALSO, you bastard, if people are not being Christians when they torture, then perhaps pagans aren’t being pagans etc, when they ‘do wrong’ but that doesn’t enter your mind.

    As for the idea that we only know what is right and what is wrong because of God, that is simply nonsense. Our morals are, unfortunately, formed, in the West, by a mixture of Plato and Christianity. That is just a sad fact and one I lament daily, but the notion that right and wrong are known only via God is simply false, different cultures have reached all sorts of conclusions to this very question – all cultures have had prohibitions, but they have fallen always in different places

    In Sparta, they exposed unwanted babies. Today, most people would recoil in horror from that, while perhaps approving of abortion.

    In pagan Europe, there were physical trials to resolve disputes in the death of one or another protagonist, today there is Ultimate Fighting.

    Duels have been outlawed.

    The ownership of an estate is no longer considered to confer the right to administer the law or to practice the right to sex with slaves, etc.
    Slavery itself has been abolished [and was, of course, a foundation of the Ancient Greek city state that reached a pinnacle of culture.

    As we can see, your God-given “morality” is groundless, we see all manner of moral frameworks employed at different times, and while there are aspects of past cultures we condemn, I am sure, in turn, the same will be true of this age. Not because people have progressed, but simply because people have changed and established new norms.

    People did not think they were doing wrong as they did these things, that they were acting in an immoral way. Morals are fluid, Christianity itself has incorporated a certain genealogy of morality.

    I hate to have to repeat these facts to an absolutist SOB like yourself, who seems to think that none of these things are in flux, a common misconception of religious people it seems.

    “They were not acting like Christ, which is what a Christian is.”

  9. “They were not acting like Christ, which is what a Christian is.”

    No. That is TED’s definition of what a Christian is. While a Christian who strays has never discredited the Bible or God, only himself, on the contrary, the great Ted sees those who are not religious as wholly defining the ground of atheism etc by their bad actions.

    You can’t wrap your head around this, can you? That you simultaneously maintain your escape clause for religious people while attributing any negative action carried out by a non-religious person as somehow directly attributable to their godlessness.

    Or is it that the moment ANYBODY at all forsakes God they immediately start on a spree of carnage?

    Is that your position?

    As has been endlessly pointed out to you, God/Christianity etc is not the only source of morals, something again, you conveniently ignore. It’s like you only conceive that the human diet can be sated by Spinach and so everybody who doesn’t eat Spinach must be ‘starving to death’ whereas in fact they are just eating one of the many other foods available (and no, the other foods are not all FALSE foods / poison etc) Jeez, you religious types.

  10. Furthermore, WHERE has God shown us what is right from wrong, Ted?

    In our conscience and/or in the Bible? Are you suggesting that these two are never in conflict? Which enjoys supreme authority? Or is this when you get down on your knees and start praying!

  11. I agree with some of what Kingfelix says, although I don’t think you’re an SOB. LOL.

    Ted, these people WERE acting like Christians, because they were following what the Bible says! What other guideline can you point them to other than the Bible? Your “escape clause” as KF puts it is really pretty pathetic–unless I hear you reject all of Christianity on that basis. Then I would buy it.

    “Spare the Rod and spoil the child.” The Bible instructs us to beat our children. Do you beat yours, Ted? This is the “Morality” that God teaches us. Also, the Bible indicates that Slaves should obey their masters. Is Slavery OK with you Ted? That’s the morality that the Bible teaches us. The Bible also teaches us that a husband may have many wives and concubines and still find favor in God’s eyes. Yipee!! I like Biblical morality! (Or maybe I don’t.)

    Ted, what you see as right and wrong has been formed almost entirely by your society, and precious little by the Bible.

    I don’t agree with Kingfelix that Western morality was formed by Plato and Christianity. The fact is, ethical behavior has (as he pointed out) been an ever-changing evolution. Prior to Christ and Plato, there were laws about murder, laws about stealing, laws about marriage, laws about usery, laws about agriculture, laws governing the market, I could go on and on! Why do Christians think they invented morality? They stepped in around a few hundred CE and picked up the ethical ball to where it had rolled at that point, and began tossing it around. Now they say they created the ball. Wrong. That is pure arrogance–and it’s not just you, Ted. All Christians are taught this and they parrot that fact back like it’s a cracker request.

    But you say that people who don’t act like Christ aren’t Christian. I like how that sounds, actually, because for the most part I like how Christ acted. By that definition, I can see why some people don’t even call themselves “Christians” as you say, because Christians follow the entire Bible, which is a horrible moral example of how to live.

    You should read Bart Ehrman’s book “Jesus, Interrupted.” It might shed some light on this book of yours … and even on the life of Christ.

  12. I try to be a Christ follower and nothing more. For me, that is what being a Christian is all about. Organized religion so to speak, can be different, however there ARE churches that are Christ following churches.

    I don’t have an escape clause for the inquisitions at all. I’m merely pointing out that they were not acting like Christ followers but were still using the name of Christianity. There are corrupt churches just as there are corrupt governments and corrupt organizations. Corrupt people in these governments and organizations can bring down the name of the governments and organizations. Look at the U.S. presidency and our local police departments and military for example. They are good in concept and in law, but when someone who is corrupt is heading them, they can go askew.

    There are examples of this all over the world. So instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water, you have to look at the organization or the presidency or the religion on it’s own merit, not what some corrupt people did to tarnish the name.

    I don’t know where I said that Christianity invented morality. Show me and I’ll be happy to retract it. I merely say that if there is no God, or real ruler of the universe, then morality is relative. One country won’t have the right to tell another what to do. One person could think that something is right and then group up with others of like mind, and then it’s survival of the fittest again.

    We’ve talked about this before. We know that an atheist can be moral, it’s just what morals do they follow. If they decide to change their morals for any given reason, than that is justified and becomes their new moral standard. Multiply this a billion times for all the people on the planet, and it becomes a little sticky. We are not all playing on a level playing field.

    I think you are confusing my defense of Christianity with an attack on paganism or atheism. I’m believing that the attacks on this website are against religion in general and as a whole, and are promoting naturalism and atheism for all the worlds peoples. That’s fine. That’s your prerogative.

    One of your examples of doing this is to show that in the name of religion, many atrocities have befallen man. Okay. So if this is your basis for negating religion, you are doing a bad job because the same atrocities have been done by atheists.

    I’m not saying atheists are evil by nature and are always doing carnage. Do you understand?

    I’m all for atheists having morals and being “good people”. I prefer that, and hope since it is a growing group of humans that appear to be taking over the world, that this would be true and preached by your leaders with the biggest voice.

    I’m for this for any religious people or agnostics or for people with a self prescribed world view.

    It will all wash out in the end and we may or may not know what was true when we die. Can we get along, that is the question.

    No, I don’t beat my children, I try to act Christlike toward them, and DO believe that correction is necessary for raising children.

    I do believe that people who are afraid to correct their children for fear that they are damaging their ego’s or self esteem are actually hurting their children more than punishing them for doing wrong.

    “Spare the rod and spoil the child” is not really from the Bible anyway. http://www.helium.com/items/274817-spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-child-explained

    In regards to slavery, I believe that we are all born equal and are born in the image of God. I don’t believe that one should rule over another as a master and slave. Slavery occurred without with and without religion through history as part of evolution would have it I suppose. And when I take Christ’s words to heart, I could never allow slavery.

    What is “Jesus Interrupted” about? I wish these books were articles on the web so they could be read quickly and referenced quickly.

    So far Ted has a lot of names SOB, Bastard, The Great Ted… That’s creative for a purple dinosaur that pronounces himself KINGfelix!

    I’m not mad at the names, I think they are funny in a sad sort of way. It seems that Kingfelix decided to be bothered after-all!

  13. If God says to love your neighbor as yourself and he says to serve others and use your words to edify those around you, and if he says not to murder or steal or covet… and when he says to do everything in love and describes love like this ” 4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.” Then you begin to distinguish right from wrong.

    Also Jesus says that you will know a Christian by it’s fruit, and the fruits of the Spirit are:

    22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

  14. Ted, I like the idea of PURELY being a “Follower of Christ.” After all, he spent most of his time easing suffering of the downtrodden. Jesus was a democrat, man! (LOL) I do not agree, however, that a human sacrifice must be made in order to forgive humanity for their sins. That’s just rubbish–but also beside the point.

    If you, Ted, were to say that your form of spirituality was simply to act like Jesus acted, and PURELY that–I would probably find very little to ever disagree with. I try to act that way too for goodness’ sake. However, I don’t think you could say that this is ALL that your spirituality and world view encompasses. Have you disregarded everything else in the Bible? Frankly, most of the issues I have with Biblical teaching is NOT the stuff Jesus did or said. It’s the stuff Paul (or the people pretending to be Paul) said. It’s the stuff written in the Old Testament. It’s the Revelation crap. Those are the things I take issue with. Not Jesus (with maybe a few exceptions, but I can’t even think of any right now.)

    Jesus is just alright with me … oh yeah … but so much crapped has been hitched to his wagon. And what you are doing Ted, is you are taking people who follow the BIBLICAL example, and say it is not Christlike! I agree! Much of what is in the Bible is not Christlike whatsoever! But I’m pretty sure that you buy the entire Bible. Which is it? You can’t have both. The pretzel logic that tries to tie in the brutality of the Old Testament God with the compassionate message of Christ is mind-bogglingly LAME. But it continues … and the vanguard of a perfect-looking Jesus becomes the meat shield for all the Bullshit shenanigans that his followers do–as instructed in the OTHER parts of the Bible. Do you see my point? I’m all for following Christ, but that is not all you do.

    You didn’t say that Christianity invented morality. You said, “God has taught us the difference from right and wrong.” That is the statement I was arguing against. But because I don’t believe in God, I see this as Christians pretending that their “God” whispered into THEIR ear the secret about what is right and what is wrong. So I am trying to show that their “morality” existed long before they did. God showed them nothing.

    Really? You think atheists are taking over the world? Cool.

    Ted I’m glad you don’t beat your children (and I’m not surprised), but do you realize that that ethical decision is entirely secular? It is not the historical Christian view at all. Christianity has absorbed this secular teaching into the Christian cannon of right and wrong. Thanks for the correction on “Spare the rod spoil the child” by the way. But still, it is clearly stated in the Bible that you should hit your children with a “rod.” Ouch.

    I’m also glad you don’t like slavery. That was kind of a “Duh” question. But IT IS approved of in the Bible–in the New Testament no less! So do you see how Christian morals have evolved alongside secular society? In the 1860s, do you know who was preaching the loudest in favor of slavery? If you said “Christians” you guessed right. And do you know why they did? Because it’s IN THE BIBLE.

    Jesus, good.
    Bible, bad.

    Only problem–Jesus is only found in the Bible.

  15. Jim,

    Obviously I don’t have all the answers to biblical questions! Dude, I’m just a regular guy, honest. I stumbled onto your site and met some interesting people.

    Because your sight was so aggressive toward Christians and religious people in general, I had to find out why?

    I’m understanding your arguments. Cool. I used to really care what everyone thought of me, but I’m learning not to care so much. I am doing the best I can for me. I believe that my questions will be answered and I have faith in Jesus that he is who he says he is. Plain as that.

    No, I can’t prove it to you. Proving it is not my job. My job is to love the Lord and love others as myself.

    Sorry for the snide remarks on my part kingfelix. I know you are passionate about your beliefs and I’m sorry mine anger you so much. I don’t judge you.

    The rod thing has a context I believe that is true. First of all, I think the rod was not really a rod, but that’s beside the point. I remember my mom hitting me on the hand (slapping hard) when I did something dangerous like start to walk out into the street! I also remember her hitting my hand when I was very disrespectful.

    That was the extent of my rod growing up (not in a Christian household by the way). That rod served a point and taught me well. I did not die, it was not emotionally scarring and I learned to stay out of the street and to not be rude and antagonistic. Could she have taught me another way? Probably! Does it make that way wrong? Not to me. The Bible taught that in the time in which it was written as a viable way of bringing peace to the household and to the child.

    It was not to beat down the child and subdue him. I’m sure we all can understand this, but can argue this just for the sake of arguing.

    Where do you say that it teaches slavery in the new testament? I am interested to see.

    I’m sure that atheists are taking over the world = atheism is growing and more and more people are ascribing to it. That’s what is in the back of my head when I read your blogs and see all the nastiness toward people of faith.

    I’m guessing that perhaps in my lifetime I may be persecuted for my beliefs. I’m merely trying to explain that I’m just human too. I’m not a freakshow spewing religious dogma at the world and condemning people. I’m sincerely trying to follow my faith in Jesus. I learn from it all the time. I find that when I follow it, it feels right deep inside my bones. I learn from the wisdom of the Bible!

    People say nice guys finish last. I’ve learned that’s not true!

    Here is a poem or a story that I enjoy, maybe you will as well.

    It says,

    so remember. People are unreasonably illogical and self-centered.

    Love them anyway.

    If you do good, people will accuse you of selfeshness and ulterior
    motives.

    Do good anyway.

    If you are successful, you win false friends and make true enemies.

    Try to succeed anyway.

    The good you do today will be forgotten tomorrow.

    Be good anyway.

    Honesty and frankness will get you nowhere, they make you vulnerable.

    Be honest and frank anyway.

    People favor underdogs, but they follow the top dogs.

    Well, fight for some underdogs anyway.

    What you spend years building may be destroyed overnight.

    I’ve seen that happen.

    Build anyway.

    People really need help, but they attack you if you try to help them.

    Try anyway.

    Give the world the best that you have, and you’ll get kicked in the
    mouth.

    Give the world the best you have, anyway.

  16. Ted,

    That story actually gets across an atheist’s perspective towards morality pretty well. You believe goodness will get you somewhere, unlike in the story. I don’t, yet I try to be a good person anyway.

    Atheists will not take over the world. If Christianity is replaced by atheism, atheism will probably morph over the years until it resembles a religion like any other. A “need” for religion is to strongly ingrained in human nature for any amount of logic to completely overcome it.

  17. CRL,

    I like that morality. I hope more and more people prescribe to it regardless of their worldview. :o)
    Before I was a Christian I tried to be a good person anyway, I understand what you are saying, and I never thought otherwise.

    Being Christian is not the only way to be a good person. The struggle is the definition of the word good. What one person thinks is good can vary. And what one person thinks is not too bad or not bad at all can vary even greater in my opinion.

    But, most of us that I have come in contact with have a sense of right and wrong. Not all follow that sense, and even get a charge out of doing wrong, but we all coexist.

    One thing about Jesus is that he has given me a guideline of what is good and what is not (as written in the Bible). I have a path in which to tread on that feels right to me and that feels like a universal right.

    The world is a crazy place. I’m sure that there is enough diversity in the world where one group would not really take over, but I do see atheism making a strong headway in our government and in the minds of Americans and Europeans.

    I like your thought of a “need”. That is what I feel too. I do have a spiritual need that feels fulfilled in Christ. Other’s may be filled with all kinds of things. We all search for filling that need with something. Some kind of purpose. Even if we decide that there is no purpose, we MAKE a purpose or we lose the will to live.

    I love to worship and sing and praise God. There is nothing like it in all of my experiences. Amazing. I love my children and wife and family and friends. I am one of the truest friends you will find. I’m extremely loyal and will do anything for a friend.

    Thanks for sharing your heart as always. “CRL”, what does that stand for?

  18. “I merely say that if there is no God, or real ruler of the universe, then morality is relative.”

    Ted is still holding to this after responding to the implementation of a version of Christian morality with “Pagans do it, too!”

    Ted also did not manage to piece together my examples of times and places in history where conflicting moralities presided, showing that this God-given conscience appears to manifest utterly differently in different cultures, and, by Occam’s Razor, it is much more likely that it morality is something formed by a mix of spiritual beliefs and human concerns, ie: like it or not, ALL of the evidence points to morality being very much relative, and each culture working out a sustainable pattern for itself.

    What your ‘level playing field’ and ‘it gets sticky’ suggests, God knows, this sounds, in the use of the word ‘sticky’ like an inaibility on your part to confront something real, something unclassifiable.

    The rest is your usual nonsense. You would actually learn something from Jim’s calmer reiteration and expansion of some of my points, but you don’t appear able to process information.

    As for not judging me – you know, big deal. At least you didn’t offer to pray for me.

    My moniker KINGFELIX – the Happy King, is nothing to do with how I regard myself. It is drawn from Scripture, in this case The World According to Philip K Dick.

    But, why, exactly is Christ – “The Lord” – isn’t that rather feudal and a descriptor that justifies the existing hierarchy? Or did God make certain people wealthy as a sign of his favour? (The Joel Osteen – God will get you that promotion, CEOs are the modern equivalent of saints, etc) – I’ve never been convinced on how Christ was a Lord – were there even Lords 2000 years ago? Oh, Christ is also a Lamb, too… But is he a Lord and a Lamb at the same time? And isn’t he The Light of the World, too? So, he is a Lamb, and the Light of the World, and a Lord. Does this mean he is also, the Lamb of the World, The Lord of the Light, etc. Put it all together and we have

    Jesus Christ, Lord Lamb of the Light of the World.

    At least Spiderman only had 2 names.

  19. “You would actually learn something from Jim’s calmer reiteration and expansion of some of my points,”

    This was supposed to be:

    “You would actually learn something from Jim’s calmer reiteration of some of my points and expansion”

  20. kingfelix,

    For a guy who isn’t able to process information I’ve done pretty well in my life! Are you really the happy king? You don’t act very happy. 🙂

    You are just not getting it. You mention conscience and relative morality. Starting with a position of there being one God who created everything, He would be the one to define morality.

    This does not mean that people wouldn’t want their own morality. People want to justify their actions to themselves and to other people and create their own morality. They want other people to buy into it so that they feel justified.

    If there is a God then only his standard would matter. All else would fall short.

    Don’t you understand?

    I’m not sure what your many names for Jesus is all about. There are many names for him. You forgot King of Kings, kingfelix.

  21. No, it’s you that doesn’t understand it.

    Where is this morality defined then? Are you making use of the morality laid out in the Bible? Or are you simply talking hypothetically.

    You employ moral relativism, because you explain that “Pagans do/did this, too” although I am not quite sure if you think there are pagans marching around.

    You also use some cylical reasoning to explain that people want ‘their own morality’ – I don’t really know what you mean by that, as I don’t believe that there is really anybody who forms their own morality to that degree, free of cultural norms, historical traditions, religious messages, obvious and subtle carried in the culture etc. And if somebody detached themselves far enough from society to have that freedom, then they would not be interacting enough (or at all) with other people, so might be said not to even require a morality, they would basically be an animal then.

    Do you believe that this God speaks only through Christianity?

    I would understand if you were capable of answering questions rather than simply posting across basic queries, you are too gnomic.

    The point is that Jesus has many names because he is a blank screen that people project on to, perhaps in your words – “to buy into it so that they feel justified”.

    I am actually very happy. You annoy me, that is all. I don’t have some make-believe God to keep me from boiling over, and, if you had to try debating something with yourself rather than receive the gift of my reason, you too would be considerably less calm. You’re like one of those terrible old lady drivers who exclaims – “50 years and I’ve never had an accident – but i’ve seen so many!”

  22. Gnomic, nice word.

    You say I don’t understand and I say you don’t understand. You can’t receive my gift of wisdom and I can’t receive your gift of reason. I’m an old lady driver and your a purple dinosaur, happy king.

    I think you’re one of those personalities that has a hard time with people. I’m guessing that you think other people at your work are idiots, and the world is filled with imbeciles. Anybody driving faster than you on the road is a maniac and anyone driving slower than you is an idiot.

    It’s very simple. IF GOD = His moral standard.

    IF NO GOD= people make up their own moral standard and decide to follow and change it according to region, country, city, group, clan, etc. They do what works best for their society. Trial and error. Cultural norms are created somehow and originated and changed over time, but vary from culture to culture. Perhaps there will be a new world order where one ruler or one set of rulers will set down the laws and the collective set of morals will be expected to be followed?

    God can speak through any means possible. Do I believe that he speaks only through Christianity? I believe that Christianity is true and I believe that if it weren’t true, or if there were other ways of salvation, that he wouldn’t have had to come to Earth as a man and sacrifice his own son. He would have said that there are many ways, just be a good person or be kind to animals or whatever. I believe he speaks to our hearts, through the Bible, through his people, through nature.

    You keep missing and missing and missing again the point of “Pagans do/did it too”. Open your mind and let it sink in… I came to this sight seeing the attacks on religion. Points are made in individual posts, some showing how a Christian is an idiot, or how a particular Christian did something wrong, or a collective group of Christians did/do whatever. I’m merely pointing out that if you are promoting atheism as a better way of life for society and your criteria for discrediting Christianity is that they have done bad things then you have to be equal to both and realize that horrible things happen in both camps.

    Why? Because people are human. Becoming a Christian means that you are believing in the structure and purpose of our lives as stated in the Bible. You still have all of the abilities to do wrong as you did before you were Christian. You have a different outlook that should help you, and you have light on your path, but straying is human nature.

    As far as Catholics during the inquisition, that was amazingly horrible. To me that was a mesh of religious and political power used to try to gain more religious and political power. Was God happy with them, NO! Was it Christlike? NO. Did it scar the name of Catholicism and Christianity? YES.

    Is it a great representation of what Christianity really is at it’s core? NO. Would that happen again? NO. Does it happen today with Islamic extremists? I think it does. Do the Islams think that terrorism reflects accurately on their religion? I don’t think so.

    I might employ moral relativism but that is my human flaw. I employ bad morals sometimes as well. I’m learning and trying to be Christlike. That’s my journey. Many bumps in the road, and actually many accidents, but it’s my journey and there are many others on the same one.

  23. Ted,

    I didn’t say that there is a human need for religion because i feel one particularly strongly. The main reason I think there is one is because that seems to be the only way to explain the insane things people will believe and the insane things that people will do in the name of these beliefs.

    Although atheism is picking up a lot of followers, that will prolly level off and even reverse itself once a majority of atheists are not deconverts from various religions but people who were raised without a religion.

    Atheism is also showing many signs of becoming an organized religion, minus the god. We already have our own books and music. Some of us (Kingfelix) are prejudiced against believers. No official “bible” or supernatural beliefs yet.

    CRL stands for Caitlin.

  24. CRL

    Oh, I understand, thanks for explaining.

    From my perspective, I think that people are built, created with a spiritual need, and we spend our lives filling it with something.

    I can see Atheism becoming like a religion for many.

    I’m not sure if you feel like me, but there are so many things to think about and do in our lifetimes! How do we get it all done and how can we give each thing the appropriate amount of time? Crazy.

    All I know is that I’m not thirsty (spiritually speaking) anymore. My heart and my mind are satisfied. I feel and give love in high amounts and I’m not afraid to live or to die. It works for me and my family.

    A guy came to my church and he made a lot of sense. He has a website that I have not yet read all the way through, but I think he has some good insights. If you are interested: http://www.bobsiegel.net

  25. “Some of us (Kingfelix) are prejudiced against believers.”

    Don’t feed words into my mouth. I disagree with Ted, but I am not prejudiced against believers. Just focus on what you want to say, perhaps, rather than mischaracterise me with a throwaway remark.

  26. Ted’s link to Siegel. Look at this guy!

    This is why, CRL, I don’t like Ted or his type. It’s extremely right-wing, it’s totally ideological.

    Usual right-wing talking points on Liberal Media, Hollywood Liberal bias, Liberal bias in Universities.

    “Two bit liberal agenda shows…”

    Siegel quotes a criticism of Ann Coulter (he is a fan).

    “Coulter thinks Schindler’s List is a comedy.”
    Siegel riposte – “That’s right, she called Ann Coulter a Nazi.”

    That is the Siegel shell game.

    Siegel then pinpoints a movement ‘within Christianity’ that is orchestrated by liberals…

    Mischaracterisation of this statement:

    “Muslims believe non-believers go to hell” as meaning – “Muslims will kill you if you don’t repent. Christians won’t.”

    Followed by mocking voice disclaiming this “Disclaimer Dan” saying, “What Bob means is ONLY those muslims who take the Koran seriously will kill you”

    Are these the good insights, Ted???

    Now moaning about Jimmy Carter. Waiting for first Clinton mention. Now moving on to next right-wing target – ACLU. Reports a separation of Church and State story. Now making link to the ‘real harm’ of Hillary Clinton, a secular progressive (O’Reilly buzzphrase) coming into office (weird, as she is friend of Israel like his girl Ann Coulter)

    Mocking segment with skit on interviewing Clinton. She is given the witches dialogue from Wizard of Oz.

    Mischaracterises the Fairness Doctrine, interesting that he lumps himself in with right-wing shock jocks.

    Moans about “having had to work with a Democratic congress” Weird, I thought Siegel was a Christian minister… Labels Clinton brainless.

    Anti-abortion rhetoric.

    Not a lot of spirituality here, all right-wing ideology packaged as ‘common sense’ as ‘the truth’ etc. No balance, no equivocation, no dialogue, just black-and-white judgments.

    We’re on to Israel. This will be open-minded.

    Bundling together of 9/11 conspiracy theorists, educators, Democrats and with a wink, terrorists.

    Warning on dangers of Islam. Warning about moral relativist Marxist professors.

    Talks about imposition of Shah after US/UK action in the 70s, support from US for Saddam against Iran in Iraq-Iran war. And now turns away from this into the ‘anti-semitic jihad’ that Iran is on… mischaracterises Ahmanjenidad. Now excusing support for Saddam under guise of moral relativism (!), it appears, as not right, but expedient.

    Ok. Now saying that Palestinians are not a culture and not indigenous to their land. ie: somehow they have not been dispossesed of the historical territory of Palestine. Why?Because it was Romans who gave the name Palestine, as a joke to wind up Jews! Who knew!

    Siegel is now promoting an electrical wiring company. Got to feed the meter. Siegel conflates his faith with commerce by testifying to the integrity of this electrician.

    On to historical revisionism. Says that there are no such people as “Palestinians”, just a lie.

    Cites Joan Peters “From time immemorial” – a highly contentious pro-Israel account that has been widely discredited for fraudulent scholarship.

    There was never a country called Palestine and it was certainly not taken by Jews in 1948.

    Muslims are always going to hate the US, not because of US policies, but because of the Koran. Funny, because the Koran.

    Land was never Palestine, there are no Palestinians. Got that yet?

    Implies that it was a disgusting place until beautified by Jews.

    Muslims plan to destroy Jews and Christians.

    I am going to have to stop, it’s enough to give a flavor.

  27. Ted
    You have very few persons on your side –
    like in Noah’s day, and Lot’s day. However, you are on the right side. Keep going my friend.

    Only, you forgot one important text.
    Matthew 7:6 – “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”

    [I really don’t like using the KJV, with its old language.]


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